Numbers and Narratives
Numbers and Narratives bridges the gap between the marketing/customer experience and data - come listen to marketing and CX experts talk about how to use data to better engage with your customers and provide a great experience.
Numbers and Narratives
Valuing Customer Data: Insights for Marketing and Product - Stefan Stahl
In this episode of Numbers and Narratives, we sat down with Stefan Stahl to discuss the intricacies of product development and customer data utilization. Stefan, with his background in mechanical engineering and experience leading product teams at startups like QuietKat and Ellavate, shared valuable insights on balancing customer desires with practical product design.
Key takeaways from the conversation:
Balancing customer wants vs. needs
Halo products and aspirational marketing
IoT for real-world usage insights
Price-driven product development
The discussion touched on various industries, from e-bikes to luxury cars, exploring how companies navigate the gap between customer aspirations and actual product usage. Stefan emphasized the importance of understanding what customers say they want, what they actually need, and how they ultimately use the product.
Find out about Stefan's newest project at ellavatewagon.com.
Hi, I'm Ibi Syed.
Speaker 2:I'm Sean Collins.
Speaker 1:And this is Numbers and Narratives.
Speaker 2:Hi Stefan. In the length of a tweet or a tweet thread, what did we end up talking about today?
Speaker 3:The three types of customer data and which ones you're supposed to value, and, as it related to both marketing and product, and I feel like, yeah, that took up a majority of the conversation, but how you place value, which parts you place value on is it what you say, what they say they want to do versus what they're actually going to do? And, yeah, we talked a lot about watches and cars and holes, but, yeah, I think that was the majority of it was where you're getting your data from and how are you using that data to educate the product and marketing around the product.
Speaker 1:Alright, stefan, thanks so much for coming on today. Really appreciated it. Before we keep going, do you want to give a brief intro about yourself?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I come from a mechanical engineering background, started in the aerospace industry at some big companies and was really disappointed in the pace of innovation 20 years from flash to bang for product launches and so I ended up working mostly at startups where you wear a lot of hats mostly too many hats and pivot around, work on different things every day and that really excited me about work and keeps me going. So, yeah, I spent the last 3 years building out and leading the product team at QuietCat. We made rugged off-road e-bikes for utility uses hunters, outdoorsmen, fishermen, off-road e-bikes for utility uses, hunters, outdoorsmen, fishermen and just had a kid 5 months ago. And now I'm at an electrified stroller wagon startup which seems like a good meshing of e-bike plus baby. But, yeah, basically product manager for both companies, product leader. I just love wearing both of the engineering development hats, interfacing with customers equally as much as the development team and kind of keeping that 30,000 foot business view in mind at all times to kind of, you know, keep all three parties happy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I figured this would be a fun conversation, because Sean and I spend a lot of time talking about how to you know how to like basically design around the user. I like just this morning, he like sent me a screenshot from our landing page and was like, hey, like this is like it was like a little image thing that we have that like is like a. It's just badly formatted and terrible because we do everything like we like. We like we'll launch a test on our website and then we'll just completely forget about it and be like, oh crap, like we should have have changed that back, because when we launched the test we didn't actually think about design and it looks really ugly and over time our website has just degraded.
Speaker 1:But we talk about this kind of stuff a lot and, stefan, the conversation that you and I had for the blog that I thought was really, really interesting is how you can create your product around the idea of listening to customers.
Speaker 1:Like you told me a bunch of stories about places you've worked, you know installing sort of like little lists, like, I think, iot devices to figure out hey, how are our customers using the product, what bugs are they facing? All this kind of stuff and like listening to how a customer, listening basically to how a customer uses the product, using both quantitative and qualitative feedback to basically, like you know, make sure that you're designing something that somebody is actually going to use in the real world, and it kind of like encompasses a lot of the things that, like Sean and I talk about. One is like retention right, how do you get your customers to continue using your product? Two is user experience how do you design something that's intuitive, easy to use, not difficult? And three, I guess two things. I said three things. I don't remember what the third thing was, but two things and I figured it'd be really interesting to sit down and have a discussion about that. Figure out how you actually develop a smart product.
Speaker 3:Well, I think the key is if you ask them what they want, they'll say something and that's definitely valuable, but it's not. You can't put all of your eggs in that basket, because if they say they need 50 gigs of RAM but they're only using 10, you're baking more cost into the product than they actually need. And I think that applies to everything. To your point, if you're making a shape box that has 15 different shapes and they can put all the shapes through one hole and achieve the same goal, you're going to have buyer's remorse because because you spent 200 on your product that could have cost it 15 and do all the things that you actually need sticking a line with that analogy, like what do you do in that case?
Speaker 1:like, I'm gonna stick with the analogy of the I I fear we're gonna say holes a lot in this podcast, which you know that's always a, that's always a risk, but you know, let's go with it. What do you do in that situation if you're like washing the product and you see that you've got six holes, but everyone can fit all the things through one hole, god damn it. Do you just delete the other ones? Okay, what's a better analogy?
Speaker 3:like, because I'm going to burst out laughing every single time I'll just, yeah, I'll go back to like what when we talked about, which was e-bikes, and so if you For instance, tire size, our customer thinks, generally speaking, that the fat tires are essential for off-road use.
Speaker 1:But then you look at oh wait, Actually, before we dive into that, can you explain the concept of outdoor bikes? Because when you told me this I didn't actually think, I didn't actually realize this was the thing. And then I looked it up and I was like, wow, I really want one of these, even though I live in Manhattan.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so yeah, I guess all kind of yeah. The main product is for hunters. We're replacing, like side-by-sides ATVs, dirt bikes, allowing these hunters to go further into elk and drag it out with a trailer. It's silent because it's electric. It doesn't burn gas so it doesn't smell and your prey can't smell you coming and you get more access to areas that are previously you can't take a motorized vehicle to. So that's the use case and our niche.
Speaker 3:There's very few companies going after hunters as it relates to e-bikes, going after hunters as it relates to e-bikes. So, yeah, that's kind of the demographic, the use case. I guess I brought up the pavement princess example, where you could have a customer who wants a 10-foot high Ford truck that has 30-inch tires but really is just using it to go to the grocery store. So if you give them what they want, they won't be happy. Grocery store. So if you give them what they want, they won't be happy. I'm sorry, if you give them what they want, they will be happy, but they're not necessarily using it for what it's designed to be used for and I think that there's a balance there.
Speaker 3:So the example for quiet cats is if they say I go on 50 mile hunts 10 times a year and I need a battery that can do that, and so you build it to do that. It costs, you know, $500 more. You end up finding with firsthand data, like an IoT module, that they're going on five mile hunts every other year. What do you do? Do you give them a $500 more expensive battery that they're going to realize that they never use, or do you give them the battery that's actually for what they're doing? And I think it's. Yeah, you got to pick and choose those battles. There is some definite like people don't buy what you do, they buy why you do it. I mean, some of it is like brand image, some of it is, you know, they have a certain image that they're going for as well. But yeah, I just think it's fascinating to see, like, what people are actually doing versus what they think they will do or what they ask for.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, this is it's so much a positioning question. At least as a marketer, I see it as a positioning question. I recognize it's a lot of other other types of questions too. But, um, yeah, I mean you know the the truck example types of questions too. But yeah, I mean you know the the truck example people that need the tow package and they need all these things, and it's like, oh yeah, do you, do you really do a lot of big hauls to Walmart or something, or what are we? What are we doing? Yeah, that's fascinating. I mean I'm sure I have the same thing I bought.
Speaker 3:I have like two different bikes for two different types and one of them is almost no miles on it because I just got it, because I really wanted it well, I, I mean, I think there's also like selling, like overselling, but like, if you oversell too much, like I bet you're kind of upset that you purchased that bike. You know what I mean yeah, so, like I'm.
Speaker 1:One thing I'm really curious about here is like a company that's selling that sort of like lifestyle, right, like. A good example of this is cars. Right, like everyone buys like a jeep, a jeep wrangler or an f-150, or like a King Ranch, like Ram, right, those gigantic trucks that have like millions of pounds of towing capacity, like I think that's a really, really good example. They're all mostly pavement princesses, right? Like the number of people that are taking like a $60,000 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon onto like an off-road track is probably like less than 10% of their entire barrio market. I'm sure I can find this stat somewhere. Same thing with like a, like a, the Mercedes G wagon like it used to be like a professional, like military vehicle and they like turned it into those like Luxo barge for, like Brad Pitt types.
Speaker 1:What do you do in that? Like, I guess? Like those products still exist and from a marketing standpoint, they're still selling. Like they still sell like hotcakes, right, like people drop 250 grand on these things, do you like? What do you do from, like a, I guess, a marketing perspective and a product perspective? Like, do you take the risk of saying, okay, we're actually going to come up with two models. One of the models is going to be specific for the city the pavement princesses, right, like it's like. The one that's like soft and like has soft seats and, like you know, isn't, is, like you know, meant for urban cruising and you come up with one version for the people that actually want it. Or do you just like, intrinsically change various parts of just the hero product to appeal more towards people that what people are actually going to use it for? Like, what do you do in that circumstance? Because they're clearly buying the lifestyle right, they're clearly buying the idea of what they want to do.
Speaker 2:They're like, oh like, or the aspiration, like I want to be this person. So I'm going to have this gear.
Speaker 1:This is such an interesting question Because, like both from like Sean, you're a marketing genius. Like Stefan, you've run products and you've built products. What do you do in this situation? What's?
Speaker 3:the right answer. I think the price is really the driver. If your target customer is a G-Wagon customer, then you build it to the nines, even if they're not going to use it, because the price isn't an issue. What we ran into was that our customers were extremely price sensitive, so you wanted to give them that image that they were getting the G-Wagon but had different brakes or slightly less comfy seats, or using that analogy. So it was how much value can you cram into this, using the G-Wagon as the goal, without buying a G-Wagon?
Speaker 1:But I guess for a quiet cab where you used to work, did you still have the G-Wagon Right, like? Again, going back to cars like Toyota doesn't actually sell that many Supras. But if I walk in to a Toyota dealership looking for like a $14,000 Yaris and I see like a Supra in the corner, maybe I'll buy my Yaris with like a sport pack. You know it's like oh, they make that thing, man, they make my Yaris go fast, so I'll spend an extra five grand on the support pack.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like the Halo product. Yeah, we definitely so. We have we have like a good, better, best range. The best was, you know, up to like $7,000 and the good was down to, you know, 25, $3,000. So, yeah, I definitely think you you have to have something to get them in the door, and then you have something to aspire to, and then they land somewhere in the middle.
Speaker 2:That's really interesting Because I think I mean there's an interesting book called the Compass and Nail about Patagonia, which I think is. I mean, the outdoor industry is another place, just like the bikes, just like cars, just like I think you could look at watches like Rolex. Right, like the Rolex Submariner watch is was a badass innovative product for for that allowed you to dive. People are not going scuba diving in their Rolex. There are now digital watches that have way more displays that people are doing and you wear your sub or trying to identify as something will only want to do that if real badass outdoor people are using the products to do real badass outdoor things, and so then you can kind of like walk it back, like it loses its identity piece if no one does it or it takes on a new identity, like the Rolex is.
Speaker 2:No, no one even talks about it being a deep sea diving watch. It is just a style piece, right? Patagonia wanted to still be an outdoor place for climbing and hikers and it gives an example I can't remember if it's like Eddie Bauer or LL Bean or one of these like brands that you wouldn't think was really made for, like hardcore outdoor stuff apparently was truly founded for, like Arctic adventures. And then people started wearing it to be cool and stylish and they they adjusted and kind of switched and moved up to just designing good looking gear and they just got like dropped from by every outdoorsman and that made all the people who are just buying it for style, you know give up on it and so they had to do like a multi-decade long kind of like turn around the brand kind of thing, because they they lost track of like their north star, of who they were designing for.
Speaker 3:So yeah, I think that I think that was north face was that example, because they just totally overhauled their entire brand image and went back to making extremely technical gear and it turned the company around for sure it's really interesting.
Speaker 1:You bring up patagonia because I I don't and this might be a little bit apocryphal, I don't't actually know. I think I'm like 90% sure Patagonia doesn't do this anymore. But like the like Patagonia VC vest was very much a thing like, especially like the finance guys wearing like the they like, actively made a policy that they wouldn't sell corporate swag.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they just were like no, screw you, like we're not going. We don't want this being worn by bankers like on Wall Street. We want this this being worn. We want this like purpose built. We don't want to associate ourselves with this brand and they, like I I've actually I can't think of another company that has, like, taken a brand position against a big part of their customer base what I assume is a big part of their customer base so hard as as that. But the pedigree is also just like a super interesting company. I wonder like what? Yeah, yeah, I don't know, does that drastically impact their sales? It must, right.
Speaker 3:I mean it's called Patagoochie too. Now, right, like they, it's called Patagoochie. That's a great example of somewhere that's they make technical gear for climbing and hiking, like you were saying, sean. But I think 80% of their customers are, are like frat guys and bc dudes and yeah, I mean, maybe that's something they're just you know they're they're taking the sales, but they're they're pushing it aside behind the scenes or I don't know all right.
Speaker 2:So so back to back to you and and and what you know, the things that ibi and I have no idea how to do. You've got this product. You have like a very clear use case and like key customer that you were originally designing for. I guess how much testing and iteration goes like live into market before you do one of these big launches, and how much is it like we're going to start selling, we're going to build in all these monitors that you did to figure out what we need to adjust and how we are actually using it, and then you adjust on like wave two or release two, or. I guess how staggered is that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so for the, for the Quiet Cat example. So I was brought on as the first technical hire. We were essentially, you know, branding and somewhat customizing bikes, but they were not designed from the ground up with our customer in mind. So basically we had a short amount of time, relatively speaking, for hardware product development to turn around this bike and make it 100% better, designed specifically for these customers. So we didn't really have the luxury of crawl walk run in terms of, oh, let's do a couple of things here. We basically just had 4 years of data that was what was selling well, what was not selling well and what were our customers saying about our product in the field. So we didn't have yeah, like I said, we didn't have the luxury of testing physical product in the field other than during the development cycle. So we passed out tons of bikes to ambassadors, subject matter experts, key customers, b2b, main B2B contacts and kind of were, like you know, acid check. Where are we at?
Speaker 3:And then, yeah, kind of using general surveys, we were able to figure out the main pain points and the low hanging fruit for what? For instance, if we asked what gets tired first when you're biking, is it your low back? Is it your wrists that was driving geometry, changes to the frame. What do you value most? Range, power, torque, what are you carrying? How much weight is this? A lot of product-related questions drove the product for the launch and again it's a little bit of that. Oh, how much are you carrying? How much are you really carrying? And you want it to be able to tow your car in the parking lot but also not cost $6,000 and no one will buy it. So, yeah, I guess it's a big value and the bike is a giant combination of different components. So you have like, oh, I'm going to pull a little value out of this and add it to this and specking in the bomb so that you hit the right metrics on what people care about most, on the value emphasis pieces.
Speaker 2:I guess, backing up from that, because I do think that using price and cost and value is always such a fascinating exercise, did you all? You went in knowing this is the price point that we think we can effectively sell this at, and so you did a backwards plan of in order to achieve this much margin, we need to have this much, and you're then forecasting the bulk rates you'll get on any materials. If you sell this much, we can get it down here, and so every single design decision and product selection decision had to account for your margins and how that plays into fitting within this price.
Speaker 3:Yeah, especially on the lower end. That plays into fitting within this price. Yeah, especially on the lower end. So in e-bikes right now there's a really big race to the bottom driven by anti-dumping supply chain and massive inventory or over-inventory situations. So we made a conscious decision not to join that race to the bottom. But we did need to have a competitive product at the lower end of our premium brand. So we basically started with that. We're like we cannot charge more than this amount, given a certain amount of sales that we're bound to run. How much value can we cram into this thing? And then, like I said, good, better, best kind of incrementally adding features to differentiate enough but not drive the cost up too much.
Speaker 1:Are you taking the same approach? I know you must have just recently started, because what new company's name to remind me of Elevate? Elevate, yeah, Elevate yeah, so for Elevate, is it sort of the same approach? I don't know anything about Stroller Regans, so I'm curious to see what the strategy.
Speaker 3:We just launched Indiegogo in July. Pre-production we have prototypes and we're hoping to deliver late this year, early next year, but we're coming to market with one product. So, yes, we're placing value on certain things and there's a definite price ceiling that we have decided that we can't go above. But we don't have a good, better best in terms of product mix. Obviously, that's on the roadmap and I think we're taking some time to learn more from product in the field before we fully bake out those offerings. But yeah, I think finding out what customers care about and packing the most features and dollars towards those features while still ticking all the other boxes is 90% of my job.
Speaker 1:That's kind of sweet. So we talked a little bit about this with Quadcat, which is you guys have sensors and devices that are on the bike. That helped you understand. Hey, how often are people using this? There's like telemetry data coming through for the bike and, like I used to run data science for Peloton, we did a lot of the same stuff, like what are the, what is the content being downloaded? You know, trying to understand and actually position the product and figure out what it does. The question that I have is what happens when you don't have a product already? Right, like, how do you kind of, what do you do to shoehorn the exact same learnings? Yeah, without something that has those devices in the field? Are you running lots of user testing Like what I don't know? You just started. So I more mean like in an ideal world, if you could do this, how would you do it?
Speaker 3:The process is what you think what they say, and then kind of that closing the loop is what you think what they say, and then kind of that closing the loop is what they're actually doing.
Speaker 3:And I think for pre-production and startups you don't necessarily get that what they're actually doing. You can get some what they're actually doing, but you're picking the customer and you're giving them a sample and you're seeing what they use, whether just watching it, but it's not like that whole picture that you're looking for as a product manager to sort of like oh well, this customer at this end of the spectrum is doing this, but this one over here is doing something else. I think, yeah, I think that what they actually do is a little bit of a luxury that some startups don't actually get. But yeah, what we did with what we're doing with Elevate is picking ambassadors, picking, you know, people that have lots of family. You know lots of kids. They're using the product. You know they would be the would be buyers of the product and seeing, you know what they, what they like. But that's again a little bit what they say, not necessarily what they do, because they don't. You know, we don't have that, that like when no one's looking. What are you doing with it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I suppose, going back to what we just what we talked about toward the beginning of this recording Sean, like from a marketing perspective, I suppose it doesn't actually matter that much, right? Like if a customer says that they want this to be able to, you know they are like listen, I'm running a marathon next year and I like want to take my kid on this marathon with me and it has to have. It has to be able to like survive like a 26 mile run and I have to be. The battery needs to be able to survive for that long and it needs to be like relatively little effort for me to push because I'm still running. Like that person's not going to run a marathon, like most of the people aren't going to run a marathon. But if you can sell the idea that you can do this and this is the only product in the market that can do this then as long you design and or even if the features kind of suck and the you know the wheels would fall off if you take this electric.
Speaker 2:You know stroller, off-roading or on a marathon, and it would. You know everything would fall apart. You design it to look like it and it would. It would work and you all your marketing is people running with it and that kind of thing. Right, if you're trying to say this is the most convenient thing, then there's no reason to build in design, product design stuff. That's about being rugged. It's about all your ads are people with two bags of groceries and a kid dangling off of them and you talk about hey, imagine, try to do this with one more hand, or something like that. You know we all need a hand sometimes. Boom, there's your tagline, you know. It's something like that where I think you have to understand what people are saying and how you're going to relate to that. And I do think that on the on the marketing side, what matters more is what people say, not what people actually do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think you know, like we, we were a very heavily DTC brand and so I worked pretty frequently with our e-comm team and we've developed the surveys together and I think there was definitely like, oh, wow, it longest range on any bike. And then if I come in and say, yeah, we actually have the biggest battery, then they'll latch onto that and then that becomes the back feedback loop to where they're looking the marketing is driving the product, the product is driving the marketing, and then a little fear and then, next thing, you know, the marketing is changing the product spec so that we can make claims or whatever. So I think it's yeah, it's potentially like a flywheel where it spirals out, but sometimes that brings in more customers too.
Speaker 1:Stefan, like, are you guys being pre-production and having an Indiegogo campaign? Peloton also launched Indiegogo and I actually wasn't. I wasn't there early enough to know this, but do you do marketing for the product before it's been launched? Like, are you trying to find? Like, how do you for something like an Indiegogo campaign? How do you find supporters? Like, how do you do, how do you drive hype to a project like that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean so we were doing some paid advertising. I don't have the specifics of where that was being funneled but, honestly, like, our founder lives in Newport and the main customer for this is the family, the mom who has two kids and a cooler and an umbrella and is hauling all of her gear across the beach with, like Sean said, one kid on her arm, two kids in the stroller and, yeah, the branding is mostly around effortless. So she would just go out to the beach and it would draw a lot of attention Because I think that was her target customer. She lives there and, yeah, people getting eyes on it and we found it with e-bikes too Like seeing and feeling and testing it. They want it. That's pretty sweet.
Speaker 1:I don't know anything about watches, but the Omega Speedmaster is a really cool thing because I like know that it was developed for the space program. Like when we were going to go to the moon they developed the speed master and it was like, oh, like it was the same idea. It was ridiculously over engineered. They're like oh crap, this automatic watch is not going to like work on the moon. We need to make something work on the moon. And the reason like I don't want to buy any other kind of watch but like just because I know I'm like is so cool, I am probably never going to space, like probably never going to be able to use the key feature, but I still want it for that reason, because it's kind of sick.
Speaker 2:I love that. I love that you said probably First of all, let's all celebrate that that you're still. You're still optimistic that NASA might hit you up at some point and be like Ibi an asteroid is coming and Ben Affleck is unavailable.
Speaker 1:We really need. You Go save Matt Damon for the umpteenth time Like super tangent. But there's like this. There's this like article about how much it would have cost to save Matt Damon from all the things that movies have been developed of saving him from. Let me see if I can find it how much to save Matt Damon. Oh yeah, it would cost $900 billion to rescue Matt Damon and all of his movies. Matt Damon has had a lot of unfortunate onscreen accidents and have stranded him in far off locales and between the Martian interstellar Elysium and saver Private Ryan. He racks up a whopping $900 billion in real life money.
Speaker 2:He's worth saving that. Why have you not positioned Cotera as the best CX insights tool for space travel?
Speaker 1:Honestly. This maybe answers my question, because it's the like. The CX person wants to use AI very badly, but not in, not with anything related to space travel, most likely. I don't think our target market is really primed for consumer space travel quite yet, market is really primed for consumer space travel quite yet. But one day, one day, I hope to land a. I hope to land virgin galactic, which I don't think exists anymore. But virgin galactic cx team could use this. We'll bring him back. We'll bring him back. I'm interested in getting your marketing opinion on something again. This is a super tangent. But there's this uh yc company called boom supersonic which is trying to basically bring back supersonic flight. Yeah, I having calling a supersonic plane company boom, I don't know like, I know it's around the sonic boom, but the first thing that like comes to mind is a plane exploding in my head is that good or bad marketing I mean, I think you are assuming a level of knowledge about supersonic travel and the effects of it that is not prevalent in actual society.
Speaker 2:All right, so wait, so most people agree with you? Think that most people with you. I don't think most people understand that when you eclipse the sound barrier, there is a renowned boom and that is why supersonic travel was banned, because of what it did to you know, the airports and the cities around it and the animal life and all that. So, like, I think I think that they missed. Okay, sweet, good.
Speaker 1:I'm glad that people agree with me. This has been really good. We're sitting at 35 minutes. I think that's probably a good place to end. Before we jump off, though, Stefan, do you have anything that you want to pub Like? If our listeners want to find you somewhere, where are they Outside of the Cotera blog that we wrote? That's quite, in my opinion, quite good, Because I wrote it. Where do our listeners find you? What you have to say? More teachings of Stefan.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean. So. Elevatewagoncom is the landing page that's again going to be the real site's going to be live shortly and again forecasting product to be shipping end of this year, early next year. Yeah, I'm wearing a lot of hats, doing a lot of things and looking for I'm hoping to work for a couple companies, helping startups get off the ground and pre-production and or production phases. I think most of my experience has been with startups and I love it's like an addiction right when you're wearing 15 hats, you're supposed to be wearing one and your job description has changed 3 times over the past 4 months and you're talking to customers the same amount as you're doing development work. It's yeah, I just I'm addicted to it, fully addicted. So that's kind of where I've been working and that's what I want to keep doing.
Speaker 1:Definitely. I think both of us would agree with you on that. It is very fun and sometimes I think I'm messed up in some way, but you know who cares. Thank you so so much for coming on. Seriously, I'm really excited about I don't have a kid, but I have a couple of close friends that are having kids soon. The Elevate Wagon sounds really sweet. Excited to hear more about the journey and hopefully more conversations to come. But again, thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 3:Yeah, appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me. Perfect. This was awesome. Can't wait for you all to listen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, everyone enjoy the show. Thank you Awesome.
Speaker 2:Great chatting with you you.