Numbers and Narratives
Numbers and Narratives bridges the gap between the marketing/customer experience and data - come listen to marketing and CX experts talk about how to use data to better engage with your customers and provide a great experience.
Numbers and Narratives
Everything You Need To Know About Podcast Advertising - Giancarlo Bizzarro, Crooked Media
This week, we had a super interesting chat with Giancarlo Bizzarro from Crooked Media about the ins and outs of podcast advertising. It was fascinating - turns out there's way more to this than just throwing money at podcasts and hoping people buy your stuff.
Key things we covered:
Your budget should be big, but not as big as you think
Host-read ads crush pre-recorded ones
Target specific shows over mass blasting
The coolest part was learning how different ad placements work - like how post-roll ads are perfect for promoting other podcasts (makes total sense when you think about it, just like Netflix recommendations). Giancarlo dropped some real knowledge about tracking conversions too - apparently you need multiple tools to actually understand what's working.
By the way, this episode definitely wasn't sponsored by ExxonMobil, though Giancarlo would love to chat if you're ready to scale your podcast advertising. Hit him up at Crooked Media!
All right, giancarlo. In the length of a tweet or a tweet thread, what did we talk about today?
Speaker 2:We talked about podcast advertising, how you can measure it, how you can add it to your marketing mix, and you know we had a good conversation about tools that can help you really succeed. If you decide to go that route advertise on podcasts.
Speaker 1:Beautiful. This was great. All right everyone.
Speaker 3:Enjoy the episode.
Speaker 1:I'm Uit Syed. I'm Sean Collins.
Speaker 3:And this is Numbers and Narratives, sean, I think the thing that we decided we want to chat about today was, I think, getting advice from Giancarlo and getting just the lay of the land on podcast advertising, because I don't know anything about it. It's kind of a fascinating world. It matters to me both as a business owner and for us as a podcast. You know, a podcast, yeah, not a podcast company, but just a podcast. So yeah, forkino's dose.
Speaker 1:But yeah, yeah, forkino's dose. But yeah, I agree, I mean it's dude, I had John Carl first of all. Agree, I mean that's dude, I had junk on first. I had such a great time hanging out with you last night, uh it was a blast, guys like we had a really good time.
Speaker 2:It was good to get to know you. Thank you so much for sponsoring our content. Um, it's always great for for us to be able to meet with clients in person, to put a face to the name of the people who are sponsoring our content, for for me, I think it's the most validating part of the job, to be honest with you.
Speaker 3:Sean, do you listen to the? Do you listen to, like, posse of America? And I completely understand why you guys advertise on there. But I didn't realize he was with Crooked Media. Like I was telling him when I was a sophomore or a junior in college and they first kind of started I think Jon Favreau and all the other guys like started this sort of podcast I was like, oh wow, this is like a sweet organization, I really want to work here. So I emailed them being like please, for the love of God, can I have an internship? And it was just like sure, but like it's August, we don't, we're not really going to look for summer interns until like May.
Speaker 1:Next year yeah.
Speaker 3:Next year is like, so maybe reach out then. But that's cool, John, do you want to? You haven't, actually, I haven't let you speak at all. Do you want to like introduce yourself and kind of say what you do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, I'm John Carlo Bizarro, vice president of sales at Cricket Media. I've been selling it for seven years, been internally for five. Prior to that I was at a small little talent agency called WME where I saw a lot of the deals kind of go down, specifically the minimum guarantee deals that a lot of the bigger networks were putting forth. But before that I was selling what was Pod Save America at a company called Cadence 13. They were a small podcast startup and then prior to that I was at a podcast ad agency called Oxford Road where I met a lot of the people who were with last night because they went on to start their own ad sort of consultancy for podcasting. They do more than just podcasting but I work with a lot of advertisers in the space, love being on pods, think it is the most intimate form of media that you can be on and happy to talk to you guys. Thanks for inviting me on today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, pumped to have you. I think last night was a great reminder of how little I know relative to to other people about podcast advertising and I was like, okay, this is, this is a good one.
Speaker 3:Let's say that you're trying to you're the head of sales Um, you're trying to sell to me. I run a small company. What is the kind of like? What are the kind of things I have to think about to decide? Like, I guess, like do I like? Usually when I go to a agency that you know is going to sell ads on my behalf to be on a podcast I don't exactly know what the right terms here are, but what am I? What are the? How does that relationship work? Like, am I going to you? Do you find the right pot? Does, like, the agency find the right podcast that has the right listener base to view my message? How does that work?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, like there's many ways to work with clients, we have a lot of clients that we work with through sort of consultancy and agency relationships and we also have clients that work with us directly and we're some of the only podcasts that they buy. One of the first things I ask a client before they come in and test podcasting as a form of their media channel is basically what other channels are you advertising on and how is it going? And if they're like we're spending money on digital and we've hit sort of diminishing returns on that and we're just keep, we keep funneling money into sort of you know meta, what have you and we're not seeing the results get better, I then suggest, hey, take that money that is not performing or you're just putting in there and move that into podcasts or other forms of offline media. The landscape has evolved. It's changed a lot since I started. When I started buying, there were not as many podcasts as there are today. Saturation is a big issue, but also discoverability. So one of the benefits of working with an agency or a consultancy they can come in and have learnings from other clients that what shows work, what shows don't, what price points make sense.
Speaker 2:And if you're not, I would honestly say, hey, you should go test your other digital channels. How's your marketing funnel working? Are you capable of sort of converting clients? Do you have things set up in a way that if you do start on podcast advertising or offline advertising, somebody can come into that funnel and convert? Those are all really key things to set up before you want to kind of advertise in podcasting. And you know, if all those things are checked off, then I'll provide you shows that I think make sense for you. I'm not going to try to upsell you stuff or package stuff together which you may get.
Speaker 2:If you're going as a direct advertiser to a lot of salespeople because they're just trying to offload as much open inventory as possible, I think it depends on how you want to advertise as well as possible. I think it depends on how you want to advertise as well. If you're looking for conversion or DTC sorts of conversions, you shouldn't be on every single episode. You need a little bit of breathing room so that your return on ad spend can sort of take off over time and you're not just pumping money into something and not seeing the results. So I recommend buying actually at a frequency of maybe once or twice a month at max. But there's many ways to sell and if at any point you want to monetize this podcast, there's also ways to get revenue for it that are outside traditional advertising models. But I'll shut up now because I've talked for like four minutes.
Speaker 3:No, no, no, that's fine. Most people monologue on this podcast, so you're good.
Speaker 1:When you say once to twice a month, you're talking about per show.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah and again right, like that's the model that traditionally works for DTC. So when I was at the ad agency I helped launch a plan campaigns for a lot of DTC type of advertisers companies that were B2B, b2c, saas products, sort of CPG, packaged goods, technological products and I think each one has a different sort of KPI right and the different cap that they're trying to hit. But yeah, one to two is generally a good amount if you're buying it episodically. That was the only way you could buy previously. You get a campaign started. The show was kind of edited into the content and one of the great things about buying podcasts that way is if you were buying stuff that was evergreen and your ad was looking there forever, you would be getting residual conversions until people stopped listening to that show.
Speaker 2:What's changed a little bit in the last few years is that companies will strip those ads out or they'll serve it dynamically. They'll sell against an impression set as opposed to an episode. I don't think that's the best way for D2C buyers to purchase, but some networks only sell that way because they're trying to get revenue from other platforms. Whether it be like a DSP that's serving programmatically or you know, they're selling multiple campaigns and once you've hit your impression they'll put somebody else in, especially in evergreen content for like news, politics, more current events based shows. I don't think that's the best way of buying. I would recommend buying.
Speaker 2:You know, a host read, ideally starting an ad break and trying to kind of see what they can offer, because most of the consumption of those shows is going to happen within the first 24 to 72 hours. Sometimes people will go back and listen up to 30 days, but for the most part it's easier for us as a company to kind of have those ads stick in there. It's better for the advertiser, it converts better, and so that's kind of the model that we do at Crooked. With. That being said, like you know, you can get conversion from other types of media sources, even if you're buying impression based. It's just dependent on how it's priced, where your ad lives within the episode and how you're measuring that conversion.
Speaker 1:There were a lot of things in there that I think we should break down very, very one by one. You talked about host read was a phrase you said that one feels obvious, where I assume it means the host is reading. If we're not doing host read, what are the other options for alternatives to that?
Speaker 2:So you can pre-produce an ad right Like alternatives to that. So you can pre-produce an ad right Like you know stuff that you're on the radio. Most places will larger networks that are selling more run of network across their entire catalog campaigns or record one ad. There's a lot of AI solutions. I know you do that so you know you can basically get an ad recorded and run that programmatically across different shows all at the same time. You can target.
Speaker 2:I think that, given the intimate nature of a podcast, when you're listening to it and you're hearing someone, there is this theater of the mind effect, especially when you're really deep into an episode that resonates with the listener. So if you have that same person doing an ad read, they're generally going to tend to be more attentive during that period of time, as opposed to if you're pre-producing an ad and it comes in. It's kind of like you know the radio right, like you're listening to the radio, an ad comes on, you might switch the channel so you can skip ads and podcasts and I think the propensity of people skipping are different when the host is reading.
Speaker 3:I was going to say that is exactly, that's exactly right. I think that for the podcast that I listened to, spotify will have it's like, it's like sometimes it'll. I actually don't know how this works because I, I don't know. I always like get more angry when it plays like the Spotify ad, because I'm like no, go forward, I pay for Spotify premium, I don't want to listen to this. But then when the host reads it, it's like oh yeah, this is fine, like I don't, I don't, I almost never forward. I think the probability that I forward is a lot higher when it's not host read.
Speaker 1:This is dumb because I'm spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on podcast ads and this is just now occurring to me. But in my head, when the host reads it, I'm paying the host and I'm supporting the show, and when the platform serves it, I'm serving like the app that I'm listening to, and I just realized how stupid that is. But literally in my head until now I've been like, oh yeah, when the host reads, I'm paying the show and otherwise I'm paying Spotify.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that it depends on how those relationships are right. Like, obviously, when it's not a host read, they will. Some partnerships are on a rev share agreement. I can talk about the talent side if you want me to. I don't really want to get too much into the details of that because I can't speak to our relationship financially. But what I can say is that a lot of the times when you're paying the host to read an ad, the show's benefiting. Most of the time when you're buying across a platform, the show hypothetically will, I'd say, get a portion of that, but that might not be running against every single download or listen on that show, so it might just be targeting people that you're looking to hit. It might be running across a bunch of different shows, so that show might get a hundred impressions of a hundred thousand dollar campaign. So obviously it benefits the show if you're buying it directly. So that's, that's a really good point, sean.
Speaker 1:So that that was actually a great, a great. Next one so we talked about host read versus um, you know, prerecord. So we talked about it being like actual live read versus dynamic, and then you just said something about targeting. So like actual live read versus dynamic, and then you just said something about targeting, so like other than picking a show.
Speaker 2:How are you targeting podcast ads? Well, do you want me to sell it to you or do you want me to give you the true answer?
Speaker 3:I think that Sell it to us, sell it to us.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, listen, like what you're doing is you're targeting age range, demo geolocation. So if you're a company that can only operate within a certain state generally, what networks will do is they'll say, hey, we'll target people who live in New York and Los Angeles, and just those DMAs gets more expensive to do that. It's not as easy to set up because a lot of the time, you know, people may download a show in New York and then travel to another place. They may not be from New York, so you're still getting your ad targeted to that person who just happens to be in transit through New York and they're going to listen to it when they get home to Missouri or wherever they live. You can also. You know it's using Nielsen X-Late data a little bit. Sometimes it's using IP matching. Scientifically it's accurate-ish, but it's not as accurate as digital, and I'm just being fully transparent on that.
Speaker 3:That's probably not a good way to sell it, but I'd rather be honest than that was going to be my question, because we don't get very many. We do this through Buzzsprout. We put it on YouTube. Youtube does a little bit. Whenever we have an episode that has enough listens, it'll kind of tell us a little bit about it. But, like Spotify doesn't seem to tell us anything. Apple pod doesn't seem to tell us anything.
Speaker 2:Buzzsprout does not have any dashboards outside of like listens for this podcast specifically, so I think different hosting platforms have better levels of sophistication right, and obviously we actually use like Magellan and Podscribe and other sort of forms of it's basically podcast ad tech, and what we can kind of drill down to is where people are listening to our shows, how many unique devices they're listening on specifically where they are in location, like education level, household income. So I think it depends on what you're paying for at a large network or if you're at sort of a behemoth like Spotify or SXM or iHeart. They've bought all of this technology to basically hone in on that. As an independent podcaster, you know buzzsprout is great. You're getting your show out there, but sometimes it might not have the technicality that you're looking for if you're trying to monetize it. So that's something that you know. Just you get what you pay for, kind of situation.
Speaker 3:Considering I don't pay for it. I don't actually, I don't know. I think we pay a little bit for Buzzsprout, but it's like not, it's not very much.
Speaker 1:We talked about who reads it. We talked about targeting and it being like native or programmatic. The other thing you'd said was was kind of ad breaks and and where in a podcast should ads fall? Is that something that I, an advertiser, can can decide or negotiate or fight for, or kind of how does, how does the placement of an ad work?
Speaker 2:listen, so you can buy. There's pretty much's pretty much three ads a pre-roll, a mid-roll and a post-roll. Each have their purpose right. So for a pre-roll you're the first thing coming in the show. Obviously a lot of people listen to the first part of the show, so if you're the first advertiser in the show, people will hear it. Generally what we try to do on our content is not make that ad the very first thing. Sometimes it is just depends on how things are. If you're serving things programmatically. Some of the DSPs like you to mark up that first place.
Speaker 2:I think what's the best method for an advertiser, if you're going to buy that position, is to try to find shows that will do like a little intro, two, three minutes and then have sort of that 60 second pre-roll just because people are starting to tune in, like if it's the very first thing they hear, they might not pay attention or be sort of in that same sort of setting that that it's going to resonate with them to say a mid-roll perhaps because when somebody's really deep into content generally you pay, are paying more attention to what's being said and when an ad comes in it it converts a little bit better for you to see.
Speaker 2:But I think that if I'm a tune-in platform or streaming or film release, that pre-roll is actually really important. It's like go see my movie in theaters in two weeks, right, and they buy a lot of that stuff. The post-roll actually is really good for cross-promotion and what you'll see is other podcasts buying or taking up that space because essentially they want you after you're done listening and somebody who's listened to the entire episode and finishes it may not be done, wanting to consume content. So if I'm promoting, say, this podcast or another podcast, generally where I want to put that is the PostRoll, because it's probably the most economical buy that you can make amongst those three ad units and it's going to have the most loyal people who finish the show at the end and maybe looking to listen to something else.
Speaker 1:I hadn't thought about that. Yeah, it's like you know, at the end of a Netflix show and it's like all right now check Exactly.
Speaker 3:It'll like auto pop what you should be watching afterwards this is maybe a silly question, but let's say that I wanted to be um, we can pick like a. I actually don't by by design. The only podcasts are that I can think of are big podcasts like acquired right, like how big should my like podcast ad budget be like? If I'm gonna try to like run an experiment or two, let's say that I'm like relatively successful on you know digital. I like kind of know who I'm trying to talk to. I know who listens to a specific type of podcast. I know who I'm trying to go after. I want to go after some of these big guys like you know how how much should I try to like budget for this kind of thing? I know that's kind of a dumb question.
Speaker 2:No, it's a great. It's a great question. It's one I answer all the time. I think that it depends on personally your budget, depends on how much disposable marketing budget you have. And then I'd say, for performance you generally want to run two or three episodes, because if somebody is introduced to a product for the first time, it might not always convert, but by that second and third episode you should be seeing sort of things go up as people are more familiar with what you're presenting to them. So I think two, three, four, if you can like a quarter campaign, three or four episodes generally tends to work well.
Speaker 2:Every three weeks is good and, based on your budget, you can find shows that maybe aren't as big as some of the stuff that we sell, where you can still get results, and that's where, maybe working with somebody who's been doing this for a long time, kind of guide you. Hey, these are like some good shows. They're within your budget, they're not going to break the bank and once we have a pulse in this media channel, if it's working, you know, hopefully that opens up more budget once we're hitting whatever KPIs you have as a company For our stuff. I recommend like 25 to 50, sometimes $75,000 over the course of a quarter. Some of the campaigns I've launched that were at that price point then would scale to the kind of budgets that Sean is spending in podcasts right now, but obviously they didn't start out that way right. And even the big players like ZipRecruiter is a company that has been with Crooked Media since the beginning.
Speaker 3:I was going to say ZipRecruiter is. The only reason I know who ZipRecruiter is is because of podcasts.
Speaker 2:But that's the thing, right. Like they, I was at the agency that launched them. Their very first campaign was kind of around the budgets, I said, and it was spread out across a myriad of content, not just one or two things, and they were hesitant at first, right. And so I think that both from a sales perspective, you have to never discount the type of product that's coming into your show. From a host perspective, you have to take things seriously.
Speaker 2:I always try to encourage our hosts to research, to look at stuff, to be familiarized, and if they like a product, I will absolutely tell that product, that or the agency that's representing them.
Speaker 2:I'll try to get product in their hands. I'll try to do an onboarding call with either the agency or the actual advertiser, like the client, the brand itself. Because if you put a human element into these campaigns then you can hear it in the way that a host read is being delivered, as opposed to if there's something that they may not use or may not consume or have no in any way familiarity with. You'll hear that in the read and it becomes maybe not as effective and maybe that brand will have a bad experience and will say yeah, podcasting isn't for me. And as salespeople and stewards of people's marketing budgets, that's not what we want to do. We want people to have the best experience possible, and if it doesn't work, we want to come out and say why it didn't and why they should still continue being in the channel, even if it's not with content that we represent.
Speaker 1:Like we need to get them that clip of Ivi saying the only reason I even know this brand is because of podcasts like that. That alone says that you remember them, like you weren't actively listening to podcasts about ZipRecruiter and it literally came to mind. I can corroborate the 50k ish range. That's where we started our test, exactly the way you described 50k across ZipRecruiter two to three months cross a bunch of verticals, about two episodes per show to kind of give them a real chance. And it was pretty obvious pretty quick how impactful podcasts were going to be for us and I actually yeah, I can't say the number now, but it is. We are spending a lot of money in this because it is an effective channel. It's awesome. It's a great way to reach new audiences.
Speaker 2:Not every show is going to work, and it's awesome, it's a great way to reach new audiences. Not every show is going to work, and that's what we know at the gate, right. But the seven out of the 10 podcasts that you may be testing in the beginning, you double down on those and the other three you say thanks, like really appreciate having worked with you. It's just not the right fit for the type of product we have. And then you, hopefully, with those seven shows that have worked, you've locked in the long-term relationship. You're getting that conversion. Still, you let that thing run its course. Hopefully it lasts a long time. Sometimes it doesn't right, but you've built your sort of stable roster of content that you're sponsoring and ideally, if you're a D2C marketer, you're using the conversions that you get to sort of expand that budget. Generally that's how it works right. If things are working, people put more money into it because it takes money to make money.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, big time. This actually brings me to maybe a last question, just because we want to be respectful of time. How do you guys track conversion rates and like how do they compare it to sort of like more traditional, like digital media? I assume that because you can be really really focused and the types of people like I don't know, like Statsig is another company, Like the only reason I know what Statsig is is because of their acquired episodes. I don't really use Statsig. We're not really a competitor to them, but like I don't know, like they advertise on acquired quite a lot and that's a podcast that I really like. I've never seen an ad for them in any other place, but I am sort of like the type of person that would use it If I get sort of like the product market fit messaging of it right, I assume that it's really it converts pretty well, but I don't know what those actually look like. Is there any anything you can talk to on that front? Maybe that's a complicated question.
Speaker 2:No, I can speak to it. Like you know a lot of brands that don't have big budgets, they'll try to find content that maybe isn't as large. That is exactly what they do, and it's speaking to a specific subsegment of people that they really want to reach. You know, I spoke with somebody yesterday and he lives in Barcelona and his whole podcast is probably in the I don't want to give numbers out, but it's not that big right. But what he'll do is he'll bring people on, interview them and because he's sort of in a VC type of setting, they pay him a significant amount for a single episode and generally they're reaching only the people they want to hear. I mean, it's something that you know. I worked with Ring, the video doorbell, and one of the things they just got rejected from Shark Tank we did is we put them on all the tech podcasts and it wasn't, you know, the biggest buy. But what it did is it got all the early adopters, who you know are really interested in tech, to buy this product and it positioned them in a way that they could then expand outwards and become more sort of mass appeal.
Speaker 2:But I think that if you focus on a content fit when it comes to conversion, you're tracking these channels. There's so many more ways to track than there was in the past. In the past you had a promo code or a landing page. You could see a very small percentage of the people who would go through and use it. You could see a very small percentage of the people who would go through and use it, but that wasn't telling you the entire story of who was coming through your you know, sort of sales funnel. Now you can pixel ads. Whether you know, all of our shows have a pixel on an RSS feed that can cross-reference an IP address. So if somebody hears an ad and maybe it doesn't go through your funnel and makes a conversion, it will go through and essentially match that person to having listened to an ad. And if you're running a lot of shows, it can match multiple shows so that it gives credit out equally. That didn't really exist up until a few years ago.
Speaker 2:I think that's a really good fit. Obviously, that costs money. It takes resources. So if you're a really small company, sometimes it's just you want to dip your feet into this space. Finding a show that's, specifically is reaching people that may use the product. It's a good way of looking at it. I think the more you get sophisticated, the more you can kind of look in and see this is how things are converting. This is how we really want to scale. So, yeah, there's there's many ways to go about doing this. It's not a one size fits all model and I think that you know it's just up to how you want to test and what your budgets are.
Speaker 1:You were on a panel actually yesterday, or hosted a panel yesterday at Adweek about, and one of the topics was like exactly this, right it was, it was how do you measure? If we're thinking, you know, for e-com brands in particular, you need to get the app fairing and that's sort of just like this isn't a question. Pause this episode, go download the fucking app and then come back and resume Like you need to be using fairing and that is going to be another phenomenon, like so yeah, you can still use promo codes, you can still do landing pages. You're getting the last touch thing. You should be using fairing to hear how people hear about you and how they remember you, and that product's come a really long way. And then there's a couple other pixel options. Right, you can do.
Speaker 2:I'm bad on names, Sure there's PodScribe, there's Magellan, there's Spotify ad attribution, which used to be PodSites and Chartable they acquired both of these companies. There's Claritas. There's a myriad of things that you can use. Some of them have their strengths and weaknesses. I think that, to Sean's points like a post-purchase survey, using something like sharing really does help because people will convert and then you can send them a follow-up, you can give them options. You can put a buffer in there. Maybe you don't advertise on newspapers but you put it in. You can kind of use that data to then model potentially like who may be coming through and converting, who's still not coming through the funnel that you want or isn't being picked up by the pixel-based attribution that you have on your campaign. That's a way to get a much more holistic view into what you're looking into. When I started buying podcast ads, this was almost 10 years ago. At this point you maybe saw 15, 20%. We still use the post-purchase survey but, like a lot of companies, just you know they're like oh, we have to do this, like why? Why is this important? I was like well, because if you're only seeing 15%, 50 to 20% of the people that are converting, you're not getting an entire picture and you're just going to write off a channel before it even actually has a chance to succeed. That was before pixels. The only way to measure was funnel and surveys, but now you have this sort of suite of ways to look at see what's happening and you know we use it internally.
Speaker 2:We've got a big e-commerce site on Crooked. When we run our sort of cross-promotion ads for merch, we have t-shirts, we've got like fanny packs I mean coffee cups, what have you. We'll run that stuff ourselves to see, hey, like, what product is converting? How is it converting? Like, did the sale that we maybe ran for, you know, the summer, did that have an impact? And we as a company use that. I mean, not a lot of places have the luxury of doing that, but I think it's important for us because not only are we a podcast company, but we also have this merch side. We have more of an impact arm that gets people to register, to vote or take action. And we're trying to be as tactical as we can with this resources that we have so that we can be as effective as possible in our messaging and how we sort of convey stuff. It's hard but it works.
Speaker 1:We'll look Okay.
Speaker 3:That's awesome. Should we talk about who?
Speaker 1:didn't sponsor this show and then call it a day.
Speaker 3:This episode is not sponsored by who do we pick?
Speaker 1:Don't call anyone, anyone, you, anyone? You want to shout out that this show is not sponsored by man?
Speaker 2:I can't, I can't throw clients into the post like that or networks this episode is not sponsored by Crooked Media. This episode is not sponsored by ExxonMobil or something yeah it sure isn't.
Speaker 1:It sure isn't. We've gotten zero big oil dollars that have been invested into this show. This episode is not sponsored by Faring, but I do want you to go get Faring and then put this specific podcast in. I want to get a Slack from Matt Barr, the founder, that says Holy shit, I just got like 10 people to get my app, so go do that.
Speaker 2:And buy Crooked if you're at a scalable point in your market media mix, please, I'd be happy to sell to you and try to make things work.
Speaker 3:Honestly, I want to do this now. Cool Thanks, John Carlyle. Thanks so much for coming on.
Speaker 2:Thank you both so much. I really appreciate it.